The Movie:

Just about every old sci-fi and monster movie ever made.

The Debate:

In a full blown to-the-death brawl between the two, who would be left
standing, Forrest Ackerman or Ray Harryhausen?

The Synopsis:

In an homage to the now defunct but tremendously good WWWF Grudge
Match(tm)page (which was much better than that Celebrity Death Match piece o' hooey), we here at Oh, the Humanity! have decided to pit two giants of the cult movie world against each other.

In the one corner (in the green Gill-Man trunks) is the really, really old Forrest "Crazy Legs" Ackerman. "Uncle Forry" is a "famous" fanzine writer and collector of old sci-fi/horror movie props who lives in a mansion which serves as his museum and personal shrine to himself.

In the other corner is Ray "Harry" Harryhausen, the really, really old special fx guy who worked on King Kong, Jason and the Argonauts, and Earth vs. the Flying Saucers, and who died in 1981. Wait, no, that's a misprint. His career finally died that year with the release of Clash of the Titans when the whole world actually realized the quality of his stop-motion effects hadn't changed since 1955. Who is the Titan of this battle? Only time (and the sharp wits of Rob and Alan) know for sure(and the Shadow, I think, he seems pretty smart).

Rob:

Well, I think this epic battle was bound to happen sooner or later. After all, both of these guys have been alive for several centuries (at last count) and it was only a matter of time before they clashed. Also, and we know this from personal experience, Forrest is really cranky. Surly, even. I don't know if he's bitter about the Smithsonian owning the original Millenium Falcon or what, but he's one angsty little cracker. Because of this, I have given the advantage to Forry because of the ever-popular Rage(TM) factor.

See, for all I know, Harryhausen's some nice old guy in Depends(TM) who
couldn't hurt a fly. Hell, Ackerman might not even have to do anything
except pose menacingly with a few Plan 9 paper plate flying saucers and
the poor old guy might have a heart attack. Besides, the guy lives in a
MANSION. I mean, he gets to write his rambling, lunatic ravings from the comfort of some kind of palace while poor Ray probably has to live in a double-wide from the nickel he gets each time TNT shows Clash of the Titans (wait a minute... with that much money, he probably lives in a mansion, too). Regardless, I say that Harryhausen barely gets a chance to defend himself with the replica of the Washington Monument from Earth vs. The Flying Saucers before Ackerman gets him with a back handed slap with an assist from the claws of the gloves from I Was a Teenage Werewolf. Ackerman in 3 seconds. Alan?

Alan:

Alright, everyone knows I don't like Harryhausen (all related questions
will be answered at a later date). But I can't in good conscious pretend that he'd lose -- the simple truth is that he's a shoe-in.

Let's be honest: we're talking about two frail men in the twilight of
their years on earth. We don't have any pretend super-powers to deal with. One guy collects stuff and the other moves small claymation figures thousands of times in a row. And the only Rage(TM) that Ackerman is ever going to experience is when someone finally tells him that THERE IS NO GILLMAN HEAVEN. Rage(TM), rage(TM) against the dying of the PRODUCTS OF YOUR IMAGINATION, Ackerman!

No, the only advantage our contestants will have over each other is
outside fan support. Ackerman may be everybody's "uncle", but when push
comes to shove, nobody's gonna jump to his defense and yell "Tag me!". I mean, what has he really done but inflated the price of nostalgic junk that we'd own at dollar store prices otherwise? Now, consider Harryhausen -- the respected inspiration of nearly every Babylon 5 special effects guy. He'll be able to rally support from such diverse populations as Babylon 5 post-production artists all the way to Babylon 5 pre-production artists. All he has to do is snap his fingers and he's got cronies left and right ready to break Ackerman apart. From here, Newton's laws of force take over and we calculate:

Force = mass * acceleration
= (300 pounds average Babylon 5 effects guy weight * roughly 20 guys
/ 32 ft/sec gravitational constant)
* .0002 ft/sec average fat guy walking speed
= untimely demise of Uncle Forry

Q.E.D. It has been demonstrated.

Rob:

I'm not quite sure I'm following your line of thinking here, Al. Sure, I can see that fanboy support would be big for old Ray, but I think that the very power that Ackerman wields as King of the Movie Geeks(TM) is just not being accounted for here. After all, while Harryhausen is the King of Geeks within the movie Industry, Ackerman is one of them. He's the kind of guy who goes to 2 am screenings of The Mummy (the original slooooooooooooow one) while the Harryhausen's of the world are still boozing it up with the Lorna Luft's and Fatty Arbuckle's of Hollywood. See, Harryhausen is establishment, he's The Man(TM). Ackerman, on the other hand, is the man of the people, he's the cat who won't back out when there's trouble all about and will help his brotherman? Yup, Uncle Forry. Damn right.

Besides, what we're really talking about here are two extremely old men
trying to beat each other up. And who's the loser here? Well.... no one, really. After all, who doesn't love seeing a couple of old guys try to kill each other? Thus, I feel we need to keep the fans out of this. This will keep the fight fare and the ring from collapsing under their collective girth. And with the fans gone, it's got to be Ackerman. Yeah, Harryhausen's choreographed hundreds of scenes where monsters fight each other and actors. BUT, who's watched all the scenes thousands of times to the point of being able to identify the watch the caveman was wearing when he fought the pterodactyl? Why, it's guys like Forrest. Besides, Harryhausen's got to be really slow and patient in his line of work. While he's carefully setting up his Valley of Gwangi move to go prehistoric on Harryhausen's ass, Forest's already doing some good old fashioned Gene Autry western gun handling and blowing Ray away. And before he hits the ground, Forest's probably sold 3 replicas of the Tyrannosaurus from King Kong to adoring fans. Chew on that, Regis.

Alan:

They've got guns?

Anyway, let's not be so hasty. Ackerman's going down -- despite your
exclusion of fan militias (and I think my calculations show the truth of the "fan" theorem, for which I have discovered a remarkable proof that is too large to fit in the margin...) Without outside intervention, we once again come down to a conflict between two mortal men, evenly matched -- evenly matched? No way!

Now, I don't care for Harryhausen (an addendum will be filed with the
appropriate explanations). But no one can deny that he's worked for a
living. Years of painstaking clay pushing have turned him into a veritable modern day John Henry, pushing himself beyond human endurance in a futile attempt to defeat vastly superior and non-crappy looking computer generated f/x technology.

Consider Ackerman living in his opulent Ackermansion, eating his fatty
Ackerfood, lounging on his comfortable Ackerfuton. A cushy life of
indulgence and indolence. Of course he won't be in shape --there's no
questions of that -- but the real point is What Has He Done? NOTHING! What Talents Does He Have? NONE! Why Is He Famous? BECAUSE THE MILLENIUM IS NEAR!

Forget your Rage(TM) -- Harryhausen is going to have Bitterness(TM)! There is absolutely no way that Harryhausen is going to let himself be defeated by his arch-nemesis (besides me -- their relative politeness toward each other is only a thin facade, I assure you) who has slid by in the most slackerish fashion ever known to man. After all the time and man-power Harryhausen has toiled away, gathering the crumbs of his meager fame while Ackerman is worshipped at every convention for OWNING MEMORABILIA? No! Harryhausen will go on an unstoppable rampage. His face will turn a beet red (mmm... beets) and his wiry arms (super-strengthened from constant use) will dispatch the lazy Ackerman in record time. It's the only possible conclusion.

Rob:

Alan, you ignorant slut, you bring up many good points, but none as good as the fact that Forrest has done absolutely nothing with his life but collect George Pal's garbage. But, in my line of thinking, that's what tips the scales in Ackie's favor! You see, a little known fact is that sometime in the Pleistocene, Ackerman and Harryhausen went to High School together. Yes, at one point, they were merely two young bucks with a twinkle in their eye and a dream in their hearts. One of those boys lived out his dream of Academy Awards and chicken dinners three nights a week. The other published a science-fiction magazine out of his mother's basement. Now, which one do you think will reap the greater Bitterness(TM)? The finely toned athletic machine we know as Forrest Ackerman. Sure he's several thousand years old. But revenge is a dish best served lukewarm, my friend, and Forrest has had years of having to put up with Harryhausen's stuck-up, Hollywood ways. It's payback time... Ackerman takes Harryhoser down before you can say something timely and geeky, like Jar Jar.

And so I end my portion of this debate, and turn it to you to conclude.
May the mighty bad movie god, Jabootu (handily available at www.jabootu.com-- pay him manna and gummi bears and stuff) have mercy on us all. For what did we do here? Did we have a little bit of fun with two guys generally considered to be pioneers in the fields of science fiction and fantasy and fandom? Or did we take two extremely, horribly old men who probably have reams of happy grandchildren and give money to starving Latverian orphans and pit them into mortal combat, disgracing ourselves and, in a way, the world, in the process? That, dear reader, is for you, and you alone, to decide.

We're going to bad movie hell for this one, aren't we...

Alan:

Oh yeah! Wait, I call dibs on the fifth circle of BMH -- that's the one where they make you match selected scenes from The Valley of Gwangi for all eternity. Very exclusive.

Harryhausen vs. Ackerman: who would win, who would lose, and have we finally gone too far? Send your comments to debate@ohthehumanity.com